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Bear23
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Joined: Aug 16, 2008
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 Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| tarsustom wrote: |
| Though it's a banned book, I would highly recommend the Book of Enoch. It goes through the whole fallen angel situation in immaculate detail. |
I feekin hate it when books are banned.... and banned where? |
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_________________
Proverbs 18:24- A man that hath friends must show himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.
Proverbs 11:2- When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
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LUCIFER
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:43 am Post subject: |
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The responses here are pointing to the very issue(s) at hand. They have been funnelled to point to the root of sin and made it responsible to a darker force at hand other than God, a scape goat as it were. All the discussions have pointed to a fictional character ... namely satan/devil/and of course Lucifer. These so called beings of sin are being made the culprit and in reality these beings whom have disciples themselves are not worshipped as one being, but rather those who worship such beings actively protest to the 3 being 1. I find it interesting that coincidently that those american native faiths who did have sects in worshipping a darker being no longer exist due to a interuption of faith, there are no more worshippers of this faith. This is due to the very fact that the faith of native american worship had been nearly destroyed. I guess it was a spiritual blessing in disguise.
In all reality the very problems we do have with society and religion is based on belief and faith. The spirit at hand (namely God) allows such false beliefs to materialize based on faithlessness unto the God. This is God's punishment unto the heavens and earth for a so-called atrocity of not believing in God alone. I have speculated that Christ crucification was a part of belief and faith being taking away from God. God's punishment unto humanity is so great that our every day lives are affected, hence the moving from faith. But God's basis of punishment is founded on God's very own making, such as the testing of faith. When this is done before God, God makes as "The Maker", meaning God created this destiny for mankind and himself based on the faithless act of testing. When a test is conducted faithlessness is conveyed for the test is one sided with the balance swaying towards sin and not goodness. The answer is only sin or wrongful acts with no conveyance of goodness or purity. Therefore, the many that are punished because of faithlessness or being humanity being evil or corrupt is God's very own making and the innocent suffer the consequences as a result. This is done regardless of the truth of things which is that the majority of humanity are good beings. This is God's pride and love for the idea goodness, purity and perfection and not the true nature of humanity that exists by Gods very own creation.
This ties into the root of the question I had originally posted. God works against his creation through faithlessness. God actively works against goodness, peace, purity and perfection by not following the path to true righteousness and goodness himself. If God did follow the path I think we would all be in a better place. Belief and faith unto humanity for humanity of humanity.
Lucifer~> |
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Independence and Indifference are wings which allow the heart to fly ...
LUCIFER~>
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tarsustom
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Lucif-
If God acted against something, it would cease to exist. Unless you are suggsting that God hasn't got the power to obliterate anything He wants gone.
The bible is rife with passages that indicate God promotes good, [i]even by allowing something "evil" to occur.
You know... blessing in disguise... that bit. |
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You'd be better off reading the Bible and then you'd know first hand what the Bible says and wouldn't have to ask others for their opinion.
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Bear23
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Lucif-
God gave man a choice. he did not make us evil or bad, he gave us the chance to choose whether to live with or against him. I also dont think satan is the cause for anything men do, he just also gives us a choice. If anything Neither God nor Satan would be responisble for all the bad things that happen in this world, but Man is. |
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_________________
Proverbs 18:24- A man that hath friends must show himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.
Proverbs 11:2- When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
-Bear |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| LUCIFER wrote: |
The responses here are pointing to the very issue(s) at hand. They have been funnelled to point to the root of sin and made it responsible to a darker force at hand other than God, a scape goat as it were. All the discussions have pointed to a fictional character ... namely satan/devil/and of course Lucifer. These so called beings of sin are being made the culprit and in reality these beings whom have disciples themselves are not worshipped as one being, but rather those who worship such beings actively protest to the 3 being 1. I find it interesting that coincidently that those american native faiths who did have sects in worshipping a darker being no longer exist due to a interuption of faith, there are no more worshippers of this faith. This is due to the very fact that the faith of native american worship had been nearly destroyed. I guess it was a spiritual blessing in disguise.
In all reality the very problems we do have with society and religion is based on belief and faith. The spirit at hand (namely God) allows such false beliefs to materialize based on faithlessness unto the God. This is God's punishment unto the heavens and earth for a so-called atrocity of not believing in God alone. I have speculated that Christ crucification was a part of belief and faith being taking away from God. God's punishment unto humanity is so great that our every day lives are affected, hence the moving from faith. But God's basis of punishment is founded on God's very own making, such as the testing of faith. When this is done before God, God makes as "The Maker", meaning God created this destiny for mankind and himself based on the faithless act of testing. When a test is conducted faithlessness is conveyed for the test is one sided with the balance swaying towards sin and not goodness. The answer is only sin or wrongful acts with no conveyance of goodness or purity. Therefore, the many that are punished because of faithlessness or being humanity being evil or corrupt is God's very own making and the innocent suffer the consequences as a result. This is done regardless of the truth of things which is that the majority of humanity are good beings. This is God's pride and love for the idea goodness, purity and perfection and not the true nature of humanity that exists by Gods very own creation.
This ties into the root of the question I had originally posted. God works against his creation through faithlessness. God actively works against goodness, peace, purity and perfection by not following the path to true righteousness and goodness himself. If God did follow the path I think we would all be in a better place. Belief and faith unto humanity for humanity of humanity.
Lucifer~> |
Not at all.
What benefit or purpose would it serve to give everyone the whole picture?
If someone wanted to, in high school, copy off of my test...I wouldn't allow it, but i WOULD sit and explain HOW each answer came about....or rather, let them fail the test and THEN show them why their mistakes were mistakes.
Giving someone all the answers doesn't help them one bit...and is, in fact, more destructive than is simply leaving them to their own devices....as cruel as we may imagine that to be.
I would never blame bad things on the "devil" per se...only that the devil influences those decisions...it is ultimately up to you to decide what to do with the freedom of choice you have.
If we all were made to believe the same thing, this world would be a pretty boring place....or in other words, if god "forced" the "truth" on everyone, that would be too easy...no one would have any type of spiritual growth...only with stumblingblocks does one learn anything about reality. |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| If you were an infinite immortal being, and created out of your infinite self (your limitless creative potential) infinite beings (a plurality of conscious observers), what ways would best allow them to express their own individuality... their separateness from you, their own creativity, their own will, their own minds? These new beings would be you and yet not you, sharing your attributes, but not intended as duplicates of yourself... Rather intended to perceive and grow in their own fashion, to come into their own infinite beinghood? How would they learn, of you & themselves, in ways that do not negate the freedom of self-determination... although their nature & yours are inextricably intertwined, because you & they are essentially one? |
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"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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tarsustom
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Watch The Thirteenth Floor, PNG. It's a good demonstration that none of us have any absolute knowledge of what the fabric and nature of reality is. |
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You'd be better off reading the Bible and then you'd know first hand what the Bible says and wouldn't have to ask others for their opinion.
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
| If you were an infinite immortal being, and created out of your infinite self (your limitless creative potential) infinite beings (a plurality of conscious observers), what ways would best allow them to express their own individuality... their separateness from you, their own creativity, their own will, their own minds? These new beings would be you and yet not you, sharing your attributes, but not intended as duplicates of yourself... Rather intended to perceive and grow in their own fashion, to come into their own infinite beinghood? How would they learn, of you & themselves, in ways that do not negate the freedom of self-determination... although their nature & yours are inextricably intertwined, because you & they are essentially one? |
easy.
Manifest ones-self in infinite ways to infinite cultures, thereby ensuring that all peoples will come to the Source from individualistic paths of their own choosing. |
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there would be no flowers at all, without a compost pile
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| tarsustom wrote: |
| Watch The Thirteenth Floor, PNG. It's a good demonstration that none of us have any absolute knowledge of what the fabric and nature of reality is. |
I've seen it. I've seen the Matrix, as well. In fact, I've seen a variety of commercial sci-fi fantasy, as well as having read quite a bit of such, e. g. Phil Dick, Heinlein, Mosely, ect.
Human beings are story-tellers by nature, it seems.
13th floor was so-so, but I prefered Cronenberg's Existenz, which was an extremely darkly humorous look at the concept of illusionary worlds within illusionary worlds, ad infinitum, as well as the dissociation inflicted on the psyche by such perception.
Reality vs. illusion... Another dualism?
The nature of reality, it appears, is unity. The whole and the parts are indivisible. Does that make either the whole or the parts an "illusion"?
If so, does that necessarily imply that "illusion" should have negative connotations? Couldn't "illusion" serve a purpose?
As for the "fabric"... the fabric is its nature, and its nature is the fabric, TT. |
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"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| fortwynt wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| If you were an infinite immortal being, and created out of your infinite self (your limitless creative potential) infinite beings (a plurality of conscious observers), what ways would best allow them to express their own individuality... their separateness from you, their own creativity, their own will, their own minds? These new beings would be you and yet not you, sharing your attributes, but not intended as duplicates of yourself... Rather intended to perceive and grow in their own fashion, to come into their own infinite beinghood? How would they learn, of you & themselves, in ways that do not negate the freedom of self-determination... although their nature & yours are inextricably intertwined, because you & they are essentially one? |
easy.
Manifest ones-self in infinite ways to infinite cultures, thereby ensuring that all peoples will come to the Source from individualistic paths of their own choosing. |
You mean an outside projection of Source, when Source is inside?  |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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LUCIFER
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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It's God's job to give the right answers. This is unto all life! He gives the answers to the plant, animal and human life. How do you think bees find honey, plants give off fermones to attract insects, humanity to survive. But lately human life has been inflicted with the decimation of perfection. As I stated earlier when the balance is struck and the test being which tests for sin then sin is the apparent outcome.
Let's seperate the divinity shall we. Firstly, you have what God proclaimed as laws for humanity to follow for a good life. Meaning we are to blindly accept and follow what God proclaimed is necessary for a good life. We have a God who gives us the answers for a good life then blatently disregards the very laws that we are to follow and allows for a test of faith that only tests for sin and sin is the outcome. On the other foot God tests for goodness and goodness follows. This basically shapes our choices and tailors our choices to that of sin or goodness.
Secondly, the apparent word of God which many have proclaimed as truth becomes is a corner stone of government and society. When we have a religion attempting to convey God and has pronounced sin, sin becomes apparent to the breathren and flock. Regardless of religion or spiritual faith. This shapes humankind as well as the true nature of God which is dominion over all life. In part mankind (and I mean man) plays a huge role in this proliferation of beliefs that disregard the nature of goodness and love for the sake of faith unto God. Meaning the prescriptions of which to live by and the stories to avert negative behaviours become engrailed in society and humanity.
Thirdly, blind faith unto God is what we are to have as this is to become our nature as physical beings. If God tests the faith of human kind this becomes the spirit that gives the answers to life to grow and be vital. God goes against his very own nature. We as human beings are a part of the very fabric of life including its spritual value.
But in this enduring process God disregards the very answers He gave us to live the good and perfect life. This creates a decadent life and existence for God and humanity. Meaning recidivism becomes apparent in this system gives life and feeds life and receives life unto God and humanity. Yet God has become apparent and in his test utilizes faith that is corrupt further compounding sin and this allows sin to grow. Practice in the wisdom of faith and a safe and good path will be the result.
Lucifer~>
Last edited by LUCIFER on Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:45 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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LUCIFER~>
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: |
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I like Lucy.  |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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tarsustom
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
| tarsustom wrote: |
| Watch The Thirteenth Floor, PNG. It's a good demonstration that none of us have any absolute knowledge of what the fabric and nature of reality is. |
I've seen it. I've seen the Matrix, as well. In fact, I've seen a variety of commercial sci-fi fantasy, as well as having read quite a bit of such, e. g. Phil Dick, Heinlein, Mosely, ect. |
Ok great. Now. For the sake of argument, put yourself on the "other side." The other dimension that truly exists while this one is some kind of holographic illusion.
Imagine creating/programming beings that live in the virtual world. I have to ask... could you explain thoroughly how, in your mind, you would have these beings exist that is better than what you have here now?
I'm trying very hard to see if you can imagine yourself creating a universe like this. What would you have done differently? Think about the really long term consequences of things like "I wouldn't allow suffering." The long term effect of Pleasantiville is completely unsatisfactory and besides if one never suffered, how could they ever appreciate it or even comprehend how good it is not to suffer? |
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You'd be better off reading the Bible and then you'd know first hand what the Bible says and wouldn't have to ask others for their opinion.
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screamzero
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| The purpose of illusion is that it be recognized as such...disregard it. Only nothing is solid. |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| tarsustom wrote: |
| Personanongrata wrote: |
| tarsustom wrote: |
| Watch The Thirteenth Floor, PNG. It's a good demonstration that none of us have any absolute knowledge of what the fabric and nature of reality is. |
I've seen it. I've seen the Matrix, as well. In fact, I've seen a variety of commercial sci-fi fantasy, as well as having read quite a bit of such, e. g. Phil Dick, Heinlein, Mosely, ect. |
Ok great. Now. For the sake of argument, put yourself on the "other side." The other dimension that truly exists while this one is some kind of holographic illusion.
Imagine creating/programming beings that live in the virtual world. I have to ask... could you explain thoroughly how, in your mind, you would have these beings exist that is better than what you have here now? |
Okay, I'm squinting & trying reeeally, reeeally hard to imagine it... 
Well, if I wasn't planning on truly giving them free-will of their own, but only intended them as puppets in my own private play, I at the very least wouldn't bestow conscious awareness of their plight upon them, because that would only be cruel.
After all, you've said repeatedly that you believe God has already selected the few he will spare, and the rest will be annihilated. right? If you are content with that, then you have problems, bluntly speaking. How can a person be genuinely compassionate, genuinely ethical, if they perceive the world as a flawed illusion full of doomed fellow souls that never had a chance?
If, on the other hand, you decide to flipflop and say that we do have free-will, and that "salvation" is possible for anyone, the basic problems are still present... That being, if God intended a desired outcome, a specific end-product, then why not ex nihilo poof that desired end-product into existence? There would be no need for life, whatsoever. Why would a perfect being want "inferiors" in the first place....
If you, TT, decided that you wanted others to witness how wonderful and good and powerful and smart you are, and then you had children who you told you would destroy if they didn't admire all those qualities in you, that you would annihilate them if they didn't love & trust you forever, what would people think of you? What would you think of a person who did that, Tom? I'm almost afraid to hear your answer, I really am.
A "perfect" being that creates "inferiors", and then threatens them with oblivion unless they love Him is mad & evil, and anyone who would want to love such a being is mad & evil.
Tom, it is not a matter of me wanting a "better" model of reality. I never made the argument that suffering disproves God, which seems to be the assumption you base your arguments upon. As I said before, it is your conception of God:
You are making God into a "golden calf", a false idol. It is your insistence in objectifying God that sows the seeds of separation. From that, all manner of illusionary nightmare springs forth, necessitating your use of silly analogies to justify those conceptions. You purport a "God" that is, ultimately, alien to its creation, one who creates to use creations as pawns that suit its own ends. You are then forced to rationalize such a monstrous entity, its unjust use of power, by seeing creation as an inferior product of God's devising that, because of its "inferior" illusionary nature, God can exercise power upon arbitrarily.
| tarsustom wrote: |
| I'm trying very hard to see if you can imagine yourself creating a universe like this. What would you have done differently? Think about the really long term consequences of things like "I wouldn't allow suffering." The long term effect of Pleasantiville is completely unsatisfactory and besides if one never suffered, how could they ever appreciate it or even comprehend how good it is not to suffer? |
Yes. I understand what you're trying to say, TT.
Such thinking is not uncommon, and I've no problem imagining God as a scientist, programmer, eugenicist, on & on, endlessly.
But those are all conceptions, with applied motivations.
The problem isn't that you believe in God, TT. I am not Humphreys, not an atheist against whom you can argue the existence of your loving "Christian" Lord...
When I interact with you, I am merely saddened by how warped, how distorted, how irrational & deluded your beliefs are, and the contortions you must put your own self through to make it all fit together.
I don't think you know God, though you know of God, in an abstract sense. But I think you do desperately want to know, or to pretend you know.
You can't see the forest because there are too many trees.
You see God as separate, other. You project the Divine elsewhere. You think that God is a "physical person in another dimension", if I recall. You believe there is God, and there is Not-God.
There is only God. |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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