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Personanongrata
B.V. Info Seeker
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Posts: 2491
Location: NAU
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 Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Tom, it is as you said to me...
I used to be like you, fumbling in the darkness of my own ignorance. I wrestled with the angels & demons within. I mercilessly questioned everything, questioned myself... I struggled long with ideas like evil, love, truth, and so on and on...
I filled myself full of religion, full of science, full of symbols & connections, full of everything I could take in. I hungered for knowledge, I craved truth. Do you understand that? That passionate desire to learn, to know, to understand? I think you do... or did once.
I could go on endlessly beating a dead horse, to no avail. I don't want to belittle or disrespect you, Tom. It is your beliefs that I find unworthy of you.
All said & done, as you told me, we can never really understand one another because we have completely differing fundamental premises, polar opposites, in fact:
My God is utterly Selfless.
Your God is utterly Vain. |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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screamzero
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Joined: Feb 08, 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
Tom, it is as you said to me...
I used to be like you, fumbling in the darkness of my own ignorance. I wrestled with the angels & demons within. I mercilessly questioned everything, questioned myself... I struggled long with ideas like evil, love, truth, and so on and on...
I filled myself full of religion, full of science, full of symbols & connections, full of everything I could take in. I hungered for knowledge, I craved truth. Do you understand that? That passionate desire to learn, to know, to understand? I think you do... or did once.
I could go on endlessly beating a dead horse, to no avail. I don't want to belittle or disrespect you, Tom. It is your beliefs that I find unworthy of you.
All said & done, as you told me, we can never really understand one another because we have completely differing fundamental premises, polar opposites, in fact:
My God is utterly Selfless.
Your God is utterly Vain. |
Your negative judgment of another's perception is a vanity. Why should there be any limitations of how each accepts a G-d of there own understanding? Your view holds well with you. Mine with me and Tom's with his. Even you and I have found common ground in spite of our different belief's about G-d. Hell, even me and Humphreys managed a sliver of agreement on the concept of perfect.
These are all manifestations of understanding G-d as we personally see HIM. Some prefer a personal relationship, so they seek that door. Yours is personal to your perspective. I dare say that all three of us could benefit from each others perspectives. Imho, your's is lacking because you do not believe deeply enough in G-d's capacity to incarnate in any way He chooses. That is the rub for all of us.
However. I am sure and absolutely positive that your conception is stout enough and that you are so very capable of achieving Satori with enough meditation in this life time. If that were to happen, and hopefully in his life time, you would be hard pressed to discount anything that of which Jesus Christ is about. For Tom, the inverse may be true. imho. |
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Personanongrata
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Joined: Dec 31, 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Now this is interesting. 
| screamzero wrote: |
| Your negative judgment of another's perception is a vanity. |
That's interesting. Are you saying that nothing can be objectively negative? Moral relativism?
I just called it as I see it. Expressing that observation was not meant as a condemnation of Tom. You should be mindful to separate Tom from his ideas, because Tom can change.
| screamzero wrote: |
| Why should there be any limitations of how each accepts a G-d of there own understanding? |
That's true, ideally speaking. But what if I conceive of God as a supreme darkness that cares nothing for life, that enjoys watching suffering, so I decide to "please" my God by sacrificing children?
Is that a problem?
Hopefully, you will understand the point of my hypothetical without assuming I am saying anyone here does that.
| screamzero wrote: |
| Your view holds well with you. Mine with me and Tom's with his. Even you and I have found common ground in spite of our different belief's about G-d. Hell, even me and Humphreys managed a sliver of agreement on the concept of perfect. |
That's so true, and I enjoy your input, SZ. But don't assume that means we can't speak our minds about each other's thoughts, as we all have done & continue to do. If Tom is resolute in his faith, then he doesn't need you to leap to the defense, does he? Still, I understand how you could perceive my interactions with Tom as being excessively negative.
Now, if I respond to Tom's claims about God & God's motives by asking questions & making observations, does that necessarily mean i am "beating up" on TT, specifically?
| screamzero wrote: |
| These are all manifestations of understanding G-d as we personally see HIM. Some prefer a personal relationship, so they seek that door. Yours is personal to your perspective. |
I have no problem with that whatsoever.
| screamzero wrote: |
| I dare say that all three of us could benefit from each others perspectives. |
I daresay you're right. Why ever did you think I was interacting here in the first place?
| screamzero wrote: |
| Imho, your's is lacking because you do not believe deeply enough in G-d's capacity to incarnate in any way He chooses. That is the rub for all of us. |
God incarnates infinitely, as Being, Nonbeing, the universe of multiverses, as the shadow & the light, as a mangy dog, a murderer, as you & me, as stars, as the void, as a forest, as the tree that becomes a table where a child who is God eats breakfast, as the animal in the forest that becomes breakfast for God and then waste matter as well, as the rats in the sewers, as the rust on a pipe, on and on, eternally formed, eternally unformed..
Is that lacking?
| screamzero wrote: |
| However. I am sure and absolutely positive that your conception is stout enough and that you are so very capable of achieving Satori with enough meditation in this life time. If that were to happen, and hopefully in his life time, you would be hard pressed to discount anything that of which Jesus Christ is about. For Tom, the inverse may be true. imho. |
Behind conception lies utter truth & freedom. I call it God, for lack of a better name.
God is a poor name for it.
No name is fitting, nor will any name ever be. |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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screamzero
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Joined: Feb 08, 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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G-d of I AM
unutterable name
no moral relativism
rationalization and justification you
understand completely;
then utterly remove the words
and there meaning from your existence...
conceive what you will;
you did not create
you made a judgment.
assume nothing;
there is no other solid.
beyond conception lies utter truth & freedom. |
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Saturos
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| In my knowledge, there is more mysteries and fascinating things than what your God offers. |
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_________________
The truth is hidden so well, itīs right infront of you... |
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fortwynt
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Joined: Mar 05, 2008
Posts: 1581
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
That's true, ideally speaking. But what if I conceive of God as a supreme darkness that cares nothing for life, that enjoys watching suffering, so I decide to "please" my God by sacrificing children?
Is that a problem?
Hopefully, you will understand the point of my hypothetical without assuming I am saying anyone here does that.
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Plenty of people probably have decided to do such a thing in the past, and probably some still DO end up doing such things. Ultimately it will not be ME one has to answer to for such activities, but law enforcement and "God"....same with anything. |
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there would be no flowers at all, without a compost pile
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Personanongrata
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Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Posts: 2491
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| screamzero wrote: |
| G-d of I AM |
I am of God
| screamzero wrote: |
| unutterable name |
nameless
| screamzero wrote: |
| no moral relativism |
"Morality springs from the felt experience of the moment.
Everything else is a rumor."
| screamzero wrote: |
rationalization and justification you
understand completely;
then utterly remove the words
and there meaning from your existence... |
The words are mirrors.
My mirror is empty.
No self
| screamzero wrote: |
conceive what you will;
you did not create |
Co-Creators
No outside.
No separation between mind & senses.
Perception is an act of creation.
| screamzero wrote: |
| you made a judgment. |
Judge the mirror?
| screamzero wrote: |
assume nothing;
there is no other solid. |
emptiness
| screamzero wrote: |
| beyond conception lies utter truth & freedom. |
no edges. |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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screamzero
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Joined: Feb 08, 2008
Posts: 2433
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Saturos wrote: |
| In my knowledge, there is more mysteries and fascinating things than what your God offers. |
G-d offers much more that is beyond your immediate capacity to imagine; as well as what you now percieve in the present. |
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screamzero
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Joined: Feb 08, 2008
Posts: 2433
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
| screamzero wrote: |
| G-d of I AM |
I am of God
| screamzero wrote: |
| unutterable name |
nameless
| screamzero wrote: |
| no moral relativism |
"Morality springs from the felt experience of the moment.
Everything else is a rumor."
| screamzero wrote: |
rationalization and justification you
understand completely;
then utterly remove the words
and there meaning from your existence... |
The words are mirrors.
My mirror is empty.
No self
| screamzero wrote: |
conceive what you will;
you did not create |
Co-Creators
No outside.
No separation between mind & senses.
Perception is an act of creation.
| screamzero wrote: |
| you made a judgment. |
Judge the mirror?
| screamzero wrote: |
assume nothing;
there is no other solid. |
emptiness
| screamzero wrote: |
| beyond conception lies utter truth & freedom. |
no edges. |
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Personanongrata
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Joined: Dec 31, 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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Nesaie
B.V. Info-a-holic
Joined: Aug 04, 2005
Posts: 10412
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
Perception is an act of creation.
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I like.... |
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_________________
Soma: All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects.
Have you had your Soma today? |
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Item7
B.V. Lurker
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
Personanongrata wrote:
Perception is an act of creation.
I got thinking about that and I can't agree with it.
First off, I think perception is a lie. Because each person preceives things differently from each other, based apon things such a vision, background, feelings, even how tired they are, ect ect ...it is subjective. A mere function of the human body. It is Maya or illusion.
Truth is something everyone agrees apon.
Creativity on the other hand is more than perception. Creativity is a mental process involving the generation of new ideas or concepts, or new associations of the creative mind between existing ideas or concepts. So it is above perception.
Perception is merely observation colored by an individual thinker.
Thanks for getting my mind onto something interesting!
Item7 |
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A true teacher is always a threat. |
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hansdew
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Joined: Jan 02, 2008
Posts: 957
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Doesn't one create their own perception? |
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screamzero
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I have heard there is a way to rid the confusion of reality as we perceive it. Consider everything an illusion to the point of not accepting everything as being realty - that true reality is perceived when all that is about you, illusion, is rejected as reality. Then reality presents Itself.
Through meditation see past all illusion and remerg
with the true onesource. |
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screamzero
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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