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Personanongrata
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 Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Item7 wrote: |
Hi,
Personanongrata wrote:
Perception is an act of creation.
I got thinking about that and I can't agree with it.
First off, I think perception is a lie. Because each person preceives things differently from each other, based apon things such a vision, background, feelings, even how tired they are, ect ect ...it is subjective. A mere function of the human body. It is Maya or illusion.
Truth is something everyone agrees apon.
Creativity on the other hand is more than perception. Creativity is a mental process involving the generation of new ideas or concepts, or new associations of the creative mind between existing ideas or concepts. So it is above perception.
Perception is merely observation colored by an individual thinker.
Thanks for getting my mind onto something interesting!
Item7 |
What exactly did you think I meant when I wrote "Co-Creators"?
Reality is only illusion if you posit a "Realer" reality. I see our particular subset of "physical" reality not to be truly physical, but rather spiritual. It is the dualism of a separate "Realer" reality that I consider to be a perceptual illusion. |
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"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
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Item7
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
Thanks for responding Personanongrata. I understand what your saying.
I differ from your belief in that I see the physical reality as seperate from spiritual reality. I think the spiritual underlies the physical, but can't be seen unless a person knows how to open that channel of their mind, or by pure dumb luck.
Physical reality is touch, taste, smell, feel, and hear. These are purely physical. Yes the spiritual underlies each of these senses, but there is a seperation of the two "worlds". Thats what makes a medium special, they see into the hidden world, just a a clairvoyant, or any person who has honed their spiritual side.
I don't believe that what we see with our eyes is the whole truth. Many things are hidden from us, and we see through a glass darkly. I think if we could see everything we would go mad. Our limited human understanding could not handle the higher spiritual truths and visions. It takes a special person to be able to handle the realms of the spirit. We dwell on a gross material plane.
Even from a scientific standpoint, we are blinded of many things unless we use instruments. We can not see most of the amazeing things that make up the physical world. Our limited human vision can't see atoms, heat energy, auras, or even the entire color spectrum. And thats just the physical world!
Reality will remain an illusion as long as we live in a physical body. Anything we filter through our five senses is degraged by our own perceptions and less than perfect awareness. We can't say what we are living now is the total truth, therefore it is an illusion. Only when we live in a spiritual body will we truely see the spiritual world. I think we get glimpes of it now and then, but even so it is a seperate reality, a seperate world. One that peeks through when the veil is thinnest.
I agree that we are co-creators. I even tend to think that we are true original creators when it comes to certian things. We have much more power than most are aware of.
Take care
Item7 |
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event_horizon
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| Personanongrata wrote: |
Why does your eugenicist god put its creation on trial?  |
I ask myself the same question all the time. The "all-perfect/all-powerful Creator" creates us imperfectly, then puts us on trial for its own errors. Makes no sense. It's just plain stupid.
This "God" kinda acts like a toddler, bulding something with lettered blocks, realizes he doesn't like the way it looks, then knocks it down in a whiny tantrum...and doesn't bother trying to build it again.
If at first you don't succeed, try try again -- you'd think an "omniscient" being would be cognizant of that concept. |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: |
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(For all you Trekkers...) Trelaine!!! Come in now....
(Maybe "god" has other rules we don't know about???) |
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\\\"I´m disenclined to acquiese to your request...\\\" |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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I don't believe God creates us "imperfect" per se.
I think the nature of the physical world is by definition, and design, such that "roadblocks" naturally arise....and I believe these obstacles and issues are what cultivate within us a stronger sense of clarity with each passing instance where we either overcome/learn, or miss the mark and take our knocks and move on.
I don't think that it is the case that God intentionally creates us "imperfect" so that we will ultimately "fail" and give God a reason to "whine and knock over the blocks"....I don't believe that it is the intention of God to set us up for failure.
I think the debate in my mind centers around the concept of whether God literally "creates" us and personally places us in our situations....rather I believe that our existence is a logical necessity of sorts....a natural cycle of the universe...God has set the universe in motion, yes, and has the ability to intervene for whatever reason God may wish to (or not, or perhaps we just dont really understand the nature of the intervention)....but as for our personal situations I think they have MUCH more to do with the natural and logical progression of cause and effect, rather than some sort of "spiteful God" trying to keep us down and affected. |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Here's hoping it's not Hero by proxy....(he/she will save us...if we beg and plead....or follow some rules...opps, nope...not yet.) |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Nah, I don't perceive it is anything like that.
I think there is no "saving" to be done by God. We reap the benefits/losses of our own choices and actions.....everything is a cycle, everything that happens, happens because of something else that has happened....I don't really believe the end-result (so to speak) has as much to do with some "action" God is taking towards you, so much as it has to do with choices and decisions you yourself have made, and the resultant consequence.
As for "rules" to follow....that is just so much "bunk".
Too many man made "rules" for our own good...if you ask me. |
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there would be no flowers at all, without a compost pile
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| So we're all just "wind-up toys??" |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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wind up toys?
nah.
More like Furbees with mobility. |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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BAHAHAHAAAAA!!!  |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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thought you'd enjoy that one |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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The universe as a virtual reality
by Flemming Funch
Fun article by Linda Moulton Howe: "Could Our Universe Be A Virtual Reality Processed By Other Intelligence?" about a professor in Auckland who wrote a paper about that. That's not a new discussion, but it is always stimulating. In part because it makes us question a number of things about our existence. Which is a bit dangerous, of course. Quote by John Vacca from "The World’s 20 Greatest Unsolved Problems":
“Quantum physicists who work with quantum theory every day don’t really know quite what to make of it. They fill blackboards with quantum calculations and acknowledge that it is probably the most powerful, accurate and predictive scientific theory ever developed, but the very suggestion that it might be literally true as a description of Nature is still greeted with cynicism, incomprehension and even anger.”
Theoretical scientists can propose outrageous theories about how the universe works, but you easily get in a bit of trouble if you propose that it might have something to do with our everyday existence.
Anyway, Professor Whitworth there has worked for years on finding analogies in the computer world for how the world works, and he also has some interesting answers for how certain qualities of the physics we discover seem to back up the idea that the universe is a simulation. Whis is the subject of the interview in the article.
So, how would, for example, the limited speed of light indicate that the universe is a simulation?
There is a fixed amount of processing available, let’s say, in space. So, if an object is being passed from point to point in space, there’s only a certain amount of processing available to each point in space, OK? And if that processing is involved in the calculation of movement, that changes the processing. The smaller and smaller amount that is left makes the mass seem greater and greater.
Or, expressed in a computer screen refresh metaphor:
Your screen has a certain rate with which it refreshes, which depends upon the little points that make up the screen. And each of these points can only flash on and off at a certain rate. So when a pixel moves across the screen, what it means is that it starts off and one point flashes. Then that point turns off and the next point flashes and so on. So, the rate of movement depends on the rate of flashing of the screen. It’s the refresh rate and it might be 70 megahertz; it might be 80 megahertz ... But whatever it is, it doesn’t matter. That’s going to mean that a dot can move across your screen so fast and no faster.
So, the speed of light is just the screen refresh rate, that is fun. What about the Big Bang?
The Big Bang is when the simulation was started, when the virtual processing began...
A lot of people have trouble with the idea that Time began at the Big Bang. I know I certainly did – and that space began. How can Time begin? Surely something must have caused Time to begin, but how can you cause anything if there is no Time to have a prior event?
But if you say we’re in a virtual reality, or local reality, then the Big Bang is when our Time began and our Space began. That is perfectly reasonable. So, if you go online to Second Life or something, when you switch on your computer and enter the reality. That’s when that Time - or perhaps when Second Life was created – that’s when its Time began.
And here's an angle I like:
Now, if the physical world is a virtual reality that does not necessarily imply that our consciousness is in the virtual reality. It could be exactly the same as your playing an avatar in a game. It’s conceivable that while everything you see and hear is definitely part of the pixels – or certainly, part of the virtual reality – it’s possible that you are not looking from inside the virtual reality.
This relates to very deep questions about whether a mechanical universe could create consciousness. I must admit I haven’t worked through all these things yet, but it’s certainly something that has concerned a lot of people from Descartes on.
Actually, if we imagine that the universe is a simulation, it makes it all the more unlikely that the consciousness which is you is fully generated by the simulation. There'd be no point to Second Life it you couldn't, from the outside, step into it and experience the simulation. You can change your hairstyle, or your body style, and you can redecorate your house, but if there's nobody there, there's just no point. Same thing with a universe.
The postulate is that the physical universe – if indeed it is a virtual reality – cannot create itself out of itself. It’s just not possible. So, there must be Something outside of it. Therefore, quantum mechanics is describing that Something. The equations of quantum mechanics, which are quite different from our concepts of physical reality, are describing this Something. The idea is that what we are seeing as we walk around is just an interface which is calculated at the moment when we look, sort of an on-demand thing.
Now we're talking.
Of course, even if we conclude that the universe is a virtual reality, it doesn't necessarily mean it is running inside some huge computer. It means there's processing going on, but what medium it exists in, that's another matter. |
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_________________
__________________________________________
"The obstacle is the path." -- Zen Proverb.
"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
"...................................." -- Harpo Marx. |
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event_horizon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| fortwynt wrote: |
I don't believe God creates us "imperfect" per se.
I think the nature of the physical world is by definition, and design, such that "roadblocks" naturally arise....and I believe these obstacles and issues are what cultivate within us a stronger sense of clarity with each passing instance where we either overcome/learn, or miss the mark and take our knocks and move on.
I don't think that it is the case that God intentionally creates us "imperfect" so that we will ultimately "fail" and give God a reason to "whine and knock over the blocks"....I don't believe that it is the intention of God to set us up for failure.
I think the debate in my mind centers around the concept of whether God literally "creates" us and personally places us in our situations....rather I believe that our existence is a logical necessity of sorts....a natural cycle of the universe...God has set the universe in motion, yes, and has the ability to intervene for whatever reason God may wish to (or not, or perhaps we just dont really understand the nature of the intervention)....but as for our personal situations I think they have MUCH more to do with the natural and logical progression of cause and effect, rather than some sort of "spiteful God" trying to keep us down and affected. |
Just please don't go and start some cult and brainwash everybody into throwing themselves into a volcano eruption or something.  |
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horizon
The mixed breed three-eyed half grey alien half cyclops mutant from a galaxy so far away you can't even get there if you folded space.
Interdimensional Renegade |
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